10. Mercy or Murder

[00:00:19] Hi everyone and welcome back to Murder Link. Today is episode 10. I can't believe it myself. It feels like this project, this baby has just sprung wings. We keep going with it and then, you know, suddenly they start to stack up and I'm just loving that we're in the double digits. It makes me happy myself. I mean, really, because especially since it's not only number 10, it's also an episode that I have a personal connection to.

[00:00:46] I've known these people all my life, essentially. Yeah, and as we'll see, it's one that I grew up with and that I knew growing up as well. Because a lot of these stories, Dad, you tell them to me and I didn't know. Because they're not stories that you would necessarily tell your daughter, but this one occurred at an age where I can remember the circumstances around it. So I'm really excited to dive in and share this story with others.

[00:01:13] Before we do that, I just want to tell everyone that we're going to go on a little bit of a break. So we'll be back on February 20th. I've got some traveling to do and schedules just don't permit us to continue. So we're going to embrace it and come back feeling relaxed and refreshed for episode 11 on February 20th. In the meantime, though, we say it all the time, but I really, really want to ask you from the depths of my soul.

[00:01:44] If you're enjoying this podcast, please leave us a review. And you might be thinking, I did or where should I do that? And the answer is everywhere, please. So on Spotify, you can leave us a starred review. And on our website, you can leave us a written review and we would love your feedback. So go to murderlink.com and let us know what you think. Let us know how we're doing. Leave us a review and let us know what you want to hear more of.

[00:02:11] And of course, if you have your own murder link, make sure that you email in and let us know because we are working on episodes where you could be featured and you could share your story with others, too. You can do that by emailing hello at murderlink.com. Anything to add there, Dad? No, I think you've pretty much said it all. But please, if you have any stories, send them in. And please always leave reviews whenever we end our stories.

[00:02:39] I'm just looking at my dad's face right now because it was a bit of a funny one. I think the reviews are important, not because we want to hear like, oh, we've done a good job. We just want to know that people are listening and connecting with the podcast. And we can see that you're listening because we can see the numbers. And that's great. And they're going up and up. And we're really happy about that. But if we don't get a review or if we don't have a message from you, then it kind of feels like we're speaking into the void.

[00:03:09] So we just love to connect with those people that are enjoying the podcast. So make sure that you get in contact one way or another and let us know what you've been enjoying. Like, I'd be really curious to hear. So that's enough about that. Dad, how are you doing? I feel like I haven't spoken to you in a week. I'm doing great, baby. It's another beautiful day out there. It's a little chilly, but that's okay for January. Yeah. And I'm missing that sun. So you have lovely, bright light all around you.

[00:03:38] I am in the pitch darkness. It's a bit later than we usually record. It's 730 at night. But here in the UK, it gets dark at 3 or 4 p.m., as you know. And I am missing that Georgia sun. Yes, I'm not jealous of the darkness. Or the cold. Or the cold. So excited to be recording. You've already told us a little bit about today's episode. I'm going to let you jump straight into it. Excellent.

[00:04:04] Like I said previously, as a child, I had grown up knowing them. Andy, Randy, and Jimmy. That was Carolyn Carr and her husband, Hoyts, and their sons. We all grew up in the same town of Riverdale. My four brothers, my mother and father, we lived on the south side of Riverdale. The Scots lived right next to the police department. So we grew up knowing them.

[00:04:31] And as a matter of fact, my brother Mitch went to school and was in classes with Andy and Big R. They all three played football for the Blackhawks. That was at Riverdale Recreation Center. They played with them about three or four years. I played on another team called the Cowboys. I was a little younger. And so, Dad, you said Big R. So Big R is Randy? Yes. Randy is Big R. And is it just because he was a big guy?

[00:05:01] Oh, yeah. He had a little bit of... You didn't want to mess with him. I can tell you that much. But remember, at this point, they were only like in the eighth, ninth grade. That's when the football stopped. So it was probably sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade, maybe. Okay. So like 11 to 14. So when you say he was big, he was much bigger than us other kids. Right. Okay. So you're in Riverdale, obviously, with your four brothers. And then this family has three brothers. So kind of similar.

[00:05:31] I mean, different because there's five of you, three of them. But you're basically two families of boys in Riverdale. But different areas of Riverdale going to the same school, kind of moving in the same circles with the same people growing up together as it was. Essentially, you've got it. And back then, you've got to understand as teenagers and everything, Riverdale in the 70s. So there was a lot of partying going on, even though we were teenagers. That's the way it was.

[00:05:59] And was their family similar to yours? Like in other episodes, we've talked about how you kind of had to fend for yourself. Your mom just had to make sure that you were home before school the next day. You know, very different rules to how I had to grow up in your household. So how was it with them? Kind of like ours. But it was because their father ended up in a nursing home. Once he was diagnosed, his physical abilities lessened. Ours was different. Our parents were divorced.

[00:06:30] Got it. Makes sense. Well, Jimmy was more my age. So he and I hung out together. Andy and Randy, I knew them less than Jimmy. They were Mitch's age. And I remember one story. Jimmy and I went to the Crystal Palace. That's a bar on Stewart Avenue, right behind Show Bar. The Gold Rush Show Bar. Gold Rush Show Bar. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. For anyone that's listening, that's the story that I think we tell in episode two.

[00:06:59] Which is still open to this day. I cannot believe it. So we went there one day before my 18th birthday for drinks with Jimmy's best friend, Ronnie. Even though I wasn't 18, which that was the age to drink back then, they still let me in. That's the way it was back then. Like I said, it was a party atmosphere back in those days. Another time, Ronnie and I went to Andy and Randy's house to buy some weed.

[00:07:24] They lived at Tin Oaks Apartments off Terra Boulevard near Arrowhead Shopping Center. When we arrived, Andy greeted us at the door. He was like, hey, come on in. Once we got into the apartment, he directed us into a bedroom. And he said, y'all go on in there and sit down. And he opened the door. This other guy came walking out. Somebody they knew. I didn't even know him. He was the only one in the room. So Ronnie and I went into the bedroom and sat down. Andy came walking in a minute later.

[00:07:53] And as we stood up, he said, what's all this weed on my bed? Somebody, it looked like they had taken like a joint of weed and slung it all over the top of the bed. And we were like, we have no idea. We just walked in a minute ago. So he reached under the bed and pulled out his stash. You know, it could have been as much as a pound because he just sold. It was just weed, nothing else. But he was like, there's no way this is right. Somebody's taken some out of this.

[00:08:19] And so before it was over, we had Andy, Randy, Ronnie, myself, and that other guy. To this day, I don't know him. I don't know who he was. All in that bedroom trying to figure out what happened. And after a few minutes, you could feel the aggression getting bigger. Testosterone. There you know. And I said, hey, look, I got an answer. Ronnie, I turned to Ronnie and said, you want to strip right here? We'll show you. We don't have anything on us.

[00:08:49] And as I said that, me and Ronnie both started unbuckling our pants and pulling them down. And that other guy, whatever Mr. Unknown name, reached in his pants and pulled out a big bag of weed and went, I'm sorry, man, I'm sorry, and started handing it to him. We immediately bought our little personal amounts and left. I don't know what transpired afterwards. We just got out of there as quick as we could because we knew trouble was coming. I'm just picturing it all. Wow.

[00:09:18] I hope he was okay. Yeah, I do too. But I mean, it was just weed. But at the same time, he was clearly someone they trusted because they left him in that bedroom. So do you understand what I mean? They opened the door when we walked in and he came walking out. He was in there by himself. And that's when he did the deed right before we walked in. I bet he heard us knocking on the door. Thinking about it. That was his moment to get what he could when they were answering the door and seeing who was in there. Yeah.

[00:09:48] Just an assumption. If they're selling weed, like they're going to be concerned about the money, right? Especially in those times. Oh, yes, of course. Of course. And understand, too, you could go through that apartment complex and probably have bought weed from five different people. It's like I said, it was the 70s. It's just the way it was. So the last time I saw Andy, he was telling me how he had been diagnosed with the same medical issues that his father had. He explained to me how his hand wasn't working properly. It just didn't work right.

[00:10:18] It was giving him pain. But it was so strange because he was so thrilled to be getting a check from Social Security for $30,000 because he was going to be disabled. But he and I, when he said all this, I felt the same way. I did not realize the weight, the severity of what he was saying. How old were you? Do you think you were then when you had this conversation? Mom and I were married. You were probably nine, eight, maybe. Oh, OK.

[00:10:47] Yeah, probably about eight. It wasn't three or four years before everything. So, yeah, that would be about right. Nine, more like it. Four years later, you were at the protest with us in Griffin. So you were early 40s or sorry, 30s, early 30s. I think it was more mid 30s, but yeah, somewhere around there. I'd have to look at the dates. OK, I guess the gravity of the situation, you know, when someone says they're getting a check because their hand doesn't work.

[00:11:14] You don't think that it's this horrible condition, which I'm sure we'll get into. Well, that's the moment that he told me I've got the same issue my father has. And I was like, now that you mention it, where is Hoyt? I hadn't seen him in years. He's in a nursing home. And once again, I still didn't get the gravity of what he was saying. You know, you're so young and you're thinking, oh, when I'm 60 or 70, you don't realize how fast it goes at that age. Yeah.

[00:11:43] And that's interesting that you're saying that because you're 60 now. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Well, when you're young, you think I'll probably be dead by then or, you know, they'll have a cure for it or I'm just not going to worry about it. And you had a good 60th. We spent your 60th in Athens test recording an episode for this podcast. And I've got the pictures to prove it. Yes, true. Yeah, it was a fun time.

[00:12:07] So I got to tell you, the next time I saw Andy's face, I'd taken you and your friend Corey. Y'all were in, I think you had just started middle school. But we had gone to High Falls, Georgia. So we were sitting at a picnic table and I had my little newspaper with me. And I was waiting for you and him to walk away so I could read it. And as y'all walked away, you didn't even get out of sight. I unfolded the newspaper.

[00:12:32] And there was Andy and Randy on the headlines with a story of Miss Carr shooting them. This is the story of the Carol Carr killings.

[00:13:00] Well, it was on June 8th, 2002, when Carol Carr walked into the Sunbridge nursing home in Griffin, Georgia. And Katie, Griffin is about 40 miles south of Atlanta. It's a country kind of place, a little rural. And you remember, I'm sure we lived there for a couple of years back about 2010, 2011. Oh, yeah. I remember there's nothing there. It was just like acres and acres of barren land. And you had to drive to get anywhere.

[00:13:28] So it's quite a boring place. Yes, but it's grown a lot since then. That's been a while. Carol was visiting both Andy and Randy. They suffered from Huntington's disease. Huntington's disease is passed from parent to child. It's a gene mutation. It affects the nervous system. It causes twitching, mood swings. It's the loss of neurons in the brain. And it eventually leads to death.

[00:13:58] Symptoms can appear between the ages of about 2 and 70. And you would compare it to what's known as Lou Gehrig's disease. It's pretty much a muscle-wasting disease. It was the same inherited degenerative disease that had taken their father's life in 1995. And it had impacted several other family members on Hoyt's mother's side. Carol had seen firsthand what this disease does to you.

[00:14:26] She had seen it in both her mother-in-law and her husband. And they died from the disease. She had brought chocolate milk for each of her sons. At that point, they could still suck on a straw and move their eyes, maybe make a little grunting noises. That was about all they were capable of doing. Well, after they finished their milk, Carol pulled a .25 caliber handgun from her purse. She placed a barrel against Randy's head and pulled the trigger.

[00:14:54] She then did the same to Andy. And speaking to their brother Jimmy later, he told me that this was always the plan. Andy and Randy had a suicide pact. After they had been diagnosed, once they reached a certain low point in their quality of life, that they would commit suicide while they still could. This was an agreement with Carol.

[00:15:19] Once the time came, she would get them what they needed to take their own life. But Carol couldn't do it. She couldn't bring herself to get these implements that they needed. It ate away at her. Once they progressed worse, she took matters into her own hands. After the shooting, she placed the gun on a table and then calmly walked into the nursing home lobby and then sat on a couch waiting for the police to arrive.

[00:15:47] Once they did, Carol told police she didn't want them suffering anymore. She was immediately arrested and taken to Spalding County Jail, where she was denied bond and where she faced two counts of malice murder and two counts of felony murder. Meanwhile, she'd have to wait for the courts to make their decisions on how to handle this case because that's how they do it. You wait for them. The story went international.

[00:16:14] Public pressure was on the Spalding District Attorney, William T. McBroom, and he was listening. Remember, he's an elected official. First, there was a demonstration against Carol Carr. It was a group of disabled people and their caregivers. They looked at the case as if it was euthanasia, and they didn't like this. So immediately, I called around and found out there was a counter demonstration, a pro-Carol Carr group.

[00:16:43] They were meeting at Spalding County Courthouse. And I'd like to clarify when I say I called around, it was people that I knew all my life that knew Jimmy and Andy and Randy, that we all knew each other, and we were finding out what was going to happen. So several of us met up there at the courthouse, people I hadn't seen in years. And Dad, this was like pre-Facebook. Oh, yes. So you had to call around, right?

[00:17:11] I mean, I don't think Facebook existed, but if it did, you definitely were on it. Oh, no. Yeah, I see what you mean. You had to get the facts because there's no way to find out unless you knew the people involved. Exactly. You had to call those closest to Andy, Randy, and Jimmy, and that's how you found out what was going on. So we had to be there, of course, at the demonstration, that is. And everyone wanted to weigh in on this story.

[00:17:39] You had the police, psychologists, district attorneys, people with Huntington disease groups. They all wanted to give their opinion on this, and almost all were for Carol. Most understood this wasn't murder. This was the love of a mother ending the suffering of her children. And that's how Jimmy felt too, right? The surviving son. You better believe it. Yes, ma'am. He sure did. And remember, he had Huntington's also. At that point, he knew he had Huntington's.

[00:18:09] Right. Okay. Eight months after the shooting, Carol agreed to a plea deal. Spalding District Attorney McBroom stated both sides gave up something. A trial could have ended in a hung jury if one or more jurors sympathized with Carol, but she would be risking facing the rest of her life behind bars. And at the same time, her attorney, Lee Sexton, stated, Carol believed she was 100% right.

[00:18:37] It was her duty to do what she did, but legally she knew it violated the law. Carol pleaded guilty to assisted suicide. She received five years, served 21 months, and was paroled in early 2004 on January 30th. Randy was 42 and Andy was 41 when they died. Jimmy died on March 27, 2011 at age 47.

[00:19:06] All three brothers are buried at Riverdale Baptist Church Cemetery in Riverdale, Georgia. I'm still in touch with Jimmy's family today. So, Dad, I can't remember being at High Falls when you found out. I'm sure you would have told us straight away. I don't think I was too young to know. But I do remember going to the protest. I remember there being a big parking lot. There were news crews there.

[00:19:34] We were kind of walking around in a circle. There were balloons. And we felt like it was an act of love. Like, as horrible as it was or is, it's what they would have wanted. And it was an act of selfless love. But I can understand how other people would feel like she took their choice away. And they wouldn't appreciate the situation for what we believe it is.

[00:20:02] Well, we all know it's a parent's worst nightmare. But I would do the same. If it would take you out of your misery, I would think that's what you would want. And remember, they did have a pact. They did agree. If there had been some sense of any possibility of their life improving, oh, no, no, no, no. But it was very clear. They were just waiting to die. Yeah.

[00:20:30] And I bet every day she must have felt like she failed them. If the whole plan was she was going to give them the pills, get them the gun. I mean, whatever stage it was that they were going to end their own lives. But she couldn't do it. And then every day she woke up knowing that they were suffering and getting worse. And she had seen her mother-in-law and her husband, who I'm sure she nursed, go through these conditions. Plus all the other family members.

[00:20:58] You said that there were some that committed suicide or at least one. An Uncle George. Uncle George. Is that the one that committed suicide? Yes. Yeah. So that and that you were telling me earlier how, was it her mother-in-law? They thought she was crazy because they didn't understand the disease back in the day? Exactly. It was Hoyt's mother. So she had seen this devastate her family over and over and over again.

[00:21:25] And suddenly, well, not suddenly, but her sons have regressed to such a point where their only pleasure in life is sucking chocolate milk out of a straw. She knew they never wanted to get to that point. And it's like she couldn't take it anymore. She did what she had to do. I don't think it was for her benefit at all.

[00:21:51] I think it was totally for their benefit because, my God, she had to go to jail and a woman her age, 63, you got to go to prison, could have been in there for the rest of her life for all she knew. Yeah. And it's not like by the sounds of it, she was having to take care of them. They were in a nursing home. So she wasn't doing it for ill gain of free time or anything like that. Oh, no. She visited them constantly. That was well known. She was always there.

[00:22:20] Cleaning, changing diapers, you know, whatever was needed. Yeah. Do you think she told anyone of her plans? I have no idea. I never heard any of that. Apparently not. But if they did know, they weren't going to say it because that could implicate them in some sort of way. Yeah, of course. Well, it brings up the issue of euthanasia. That's for sure. This one story alone. It went international.

[00:22:46] I know it was on Dr. Phil and I believe a show called Snapped. I believe it was on that one also. Yeah, I tried to find the Dr. Phil episode and I found an article that talked about them planning an episode, but I couldn't find the actual footage, but you said that you've seen it. Oh, yes. I've actually seen it. They were on there. Did you come across anyone saying horrible things about her or anything like that? Or was it a peaceful demonstration? Because I can't remember the specifics.

[00:23:16] Not one person had anything bad to say or anything. And one thing that was kind of strange, as each news outlet showed up, television news outlet, they wanted us to re-release the balloons. We did it three times. So they would have us release balloons over and over. That stood out a lot. It just seemed bizarre, but whatever it would take to get her charges reduced, if not removed. So, Dadia, it must be interesting, right? These are people that you grew up with.

[00:23:47] And back then when you were kids, you never knew anything about this disease. You didn't know that it was something that was in their bloodline that Hoyt was suffering with. And sadly, they were impacted. And that's where this case comes from. So this is a murder, probably the youngest murder link that you have. Yes, probably is because I knew them very young age. And, you know, I've got to say it's very strange to be in Riverdale from time to time.

[00:24:15] And to see these places, their house, where they're buried, Riverdale Recreation Center, what used to be Riverdale Recreation Center. And, you know, the places we used to hang out and such. It's just, you know, kind of strange to know this whole story and how it all ended, how it all unfolded. I'm just glad Ms. Carr did not really receive any serious time. Yeah, she got just less than two years. Yes, that's what she spent.

[00:24:45] Less than two years. I imagine that was quite difficult, you know, for a woman her age. I think she was in her 60s who had never had what I would imagine any brushes with the law to suddenly find herself confined and probably feeling like she was judged. Right. Because as you say, the whole world was looking at this case. We felt it was a mercy killing, but other people didn't. There's mean people everywhere you go. So I imagine she had to have thick skin.

[00:25:13] Yeah, I would like to think that she wasn't so worried about what others thought because there were plenty of people coming up and telling her that they did approve, that they would have done the same. And also the demonstrations, the shows on TV, the news media. Everyone handled it in such a way. Yeah. And I guess what probably mattered the most is what her family thought. And her son was vocal in his support. And he understood, right?

[00:25:38] As someone that has the disease himself, he could understand the position more than most. Yes, that's true. And also it was what was in her heart. That's what she was probably most concerned with. She knew she did the right thing no matter what others thought. Absolutely. Okay. What a story, Dad. Thank you for sharing. That wraps up episode 10 of Murder Link.

[00:26:03] I just, I know it's only 10 episodes, but from conception or ideation to this point, I'm like, Jesus, we made it to 10. Yes, it has been an uphill fight, but I've enjoyed every minute because I get to spend it with you. Oh, Dad, you're so sweet. Thank you. People keep asking me because, you know, I mentioned the podcast. When I went and got my brows done today, I was telling her, oh, we're filming the 10th episode today. And she's like, do you love it? Like, you know, what do you think?

[00:26:32] And it's like, it's a great experience. But more than anything else, I have a little project with my dad, which is quite cool because we live 4,500 miles from each other. We see each other a couple of times a year. And now I get to see you every week with the purpose of being like something more than what did you have for dinner? What are you doing tomorrow? Yes. And I've enjoyed every minute. You know it. It's been a fun time doing this, even though some of the subjects are very heavy. We both know it. But life is what it is.

[00:27:02] You take it and run with it or you let it weigh you down. One or the other. Yeah, that's something that you've always taught me is if I don't like the fact that I'm aging or if I don't like the fact that something's happening, it's better than the alternative. And I have to say, we know a lot of people that didn't live to an old age because of sickness or health or whatever. So you have to embrace life. And I do feel like this podcast can be quite dark and we're never celebrating murder or what's happened.

[00:27:31] But I think we're shedding light on how closely it can be intertwined with different people's lives. And that it's closer than you think, you know, from a psychological perspective, which I'm always interested in with my background. So thank you for being on this journey with me. And it's not ending. We are just taking a couple of weeks and we'll be back on February 20th. In the meantime, don't forget to leave us that review.

[00:27:58] Do send us your murder link if you have one at hello at murderlink.com. And yeah, stay in touch, listen to all the episodes and be ready for the next one. Thank you for listening. And you know what I'm going to say, don't you? Please like, subscribe, leave us a review and leave us your story. We want to hear your story. Thanks, everybody. Bye.