9. Jasper Texas

[00:00:19] Hi everyone and welcome to Murder Link. We are recording our second episode of the year and I've actually just come in from a pub lunch with Ty and Tom Dad who you saw maybe last time you were here or the time before? Oh yes, I really liked Ty, she's very nice. And Tom. And Tom, he's very nice too. Sorry Tom. Tom wasn't around on your last visit when you came over Thanksgiving but yeah we had a great time.

[00:00:48] And so it's just great to see you this weekend. Usually we record after work and it's a bit more of a fast-paced experience because it's the end of the day here in the UK. I'm ready to go chill with my dog. Just a different, more calming vibe this time. And I think you said it's been snowing in Atlanta as well so you've had a bit of an off day too. Oh, an off two or three days now. You know Atlanta, we're snowed in with three inches of snow so it's the end of the world here.

[00:01:15] So we've been stuck here for three days now. Thrilled to be standing here getting ready to do another podcast. Yeah, I said to Ben that you and mom were off work because of the snow and he looked it up and he just couldn't believe it. He was like they can't even deal with that but Atlanta just comes to a standstill when it snows. Oh, it's hilarious really. In a strange way, it's very funny. Yeah, yeah. So you guys are fine though. You've got everything you need. Can you drive out there?

[00:01:43] Oh yeah, actually the roads are clear at this point but this morning they acted like it wouldn't be but everything's fine now. And do you think you'll get any more? You don't know. Oh no, we're done for this. Okay, well it was a bit of a white January where it lasted. I'm so glad that you're able to join because usually you're working right now. So it's great that we're able to record today and I guess I'll just let you take it away. Do you want to start us off with your personal connection to today's story?

[00:02:10] Yes, I sure do and this is a really good one I think. It was international news, this story. So it was about May of 1983. I was about 20 years old. I was living with my dad and he died. So about three months later, I was pretty much on my own and I mean seriously on my own. I had nobody, Katie. I didn't even have a car. I just couch surfed with friends.

[00:02:39] And dad, I just want to clarify, like back then you didn't know mom, right? Like how old did you say you were 20? Oh yes, I didn't meet your mother for about another four years. Okay, right. So yeah, just trying to piece it all together in my head. Yes. So like I was saying, it was really surprising when my oldest brother, Art, who lived in Chico, California, called up one day and offered to buy me a ticket to come out and see him because I didn't see him very often or hear from him very much.

[00:03:08] He was 10 years older than me. He explained if I wanted to that I could stay a couple weeks and then we would drive back to Atlanta. He then explained to me that Randy was out there. Randy is my second oldest brother and it was just a vacation. That was all. So how could I say no to it? He was offering to buy my ticket. So off I went.

[00:03:28] When I got there, we stayed at Art's house. I would say we hung around about three or four days, but eventually we started traveling around, going to see places in the area. We rode around the Sierra Nevada mountain range and man, it is beautiful. You cannot describe that whole area out there. If you just went out there once, you'd understand. So we drove to Lake Tahoe, did a little gambling, drove back, stayed at his house again for a little bit longer.

[00:03:56] But the last several days that we were there, we drove to Eureka, which is on the West Coast. We went out there to see Art's friends and to check out the scenery because we got to drive through Redwood State Park at Grizzly Creek. If you've ever been there, then you'll understand the excitement of the place. From there going north, we drove through Humboldt National Wildlife Refuge.

[00:04:22] And all of this is protected lands. So you really can't describe what it looks like. It's just an amazing place. It sounds beautiful, Dad. And I've just got to ask, because I've been unhealthily obsessed with the LA wildfires that are going on right now. It's really devastating to see everything that's happening out there. When you talk about Chico, California, this is north of LA. Is that right?

[00:04:45] Well, Chico's slightly northeast of San Francisco and where we went to would be northwest, would be north of San Francisco. So you're very close to the Oregon border. You're within 300 miles somewhere in that range. I'm not sure exactly. It's been a while since I've been there. But as I said, we went through the Redwood Forest, the giant redwoods. It's amazing. You have to see them one day.

[00:05:15] Right. So this is like rural California as opposed to like cosmopolitan. Protected lands, unspoiled. Yes, very rural. So finally, when we arrived in Eureka, we went straight to Art's friend's house. And it was so quick how it became clear that they were weed growers. So this was back in 1983 when it wasn't legal at all. They explained since it was May, all the smoke they had was shake.

[00:05:44] From last year's harvest, it was a little bit of bud mixed in with leaf is essentially all it is. So the way that they said it, you would have thought that they were going to show us a couple of ounces on a tray or something. You would not have known or I should have known when they motioned us to come back to the other room what was about to happen. What they showed us, if you want it, was $65 worth.

[00:06:09] It was a trash bag, a green trash bag, like you put leaves in, three quarters of the way filled with weed. It was real puffy and real light, but it was huge. It kind of reminded you of a beanbag chair. So I would say it was literally, though, about four to five pounds, maybe six at the most, but very puffy, as I said earlier. So, I mean, how can my brother Art say no at $65? And besides, what could go wrong?

[00:06:39] I mean, three men in a van traveling across country with a California license plate and several pounds of weed. I have a feeling something went wrong. Yes. As a matter of fact, to make a long story short, we made it to Beaumont, Texas. That's about 125 miles east of Houston. We parked at a shell station. It was just off the highway because we were waiting for Art's friend, Jeff.

[00:07:07] We were going to follow him to his house. It was like the halfway point. We'd spend the night at his house, wake up the next day, just drive on through. We might have been going to stay a day or two or something, maybe. I'm not sure. So, while we were waiting for Jeff, my brother Art, in his brilliance, and I say this sarcastically, he really was a genius.

[00:07:27] But Art decided to light a joint in east Texas at a gas station, once again, in a van with California license plates and three men. It didn't take long before the police arrived and all three of us were arrested. And so, you know, at the time, were you trying to get him not to light it or did you not really think anything of it? He pulled off the highway. I was asleep when he pulled into the shell station.

[00:07:56] I got up and we were sitting there a minute and he lit the joint. And I said, do you think this is cool here at this station? It's no big deal. He was kind of grouchy. And I wasn't going to argue with him. Like I said, he was 10 years older than me. Yeah. So, you know, what else could I do? And he was in charge. It was his money, his van, the whole trip. You know what I mean? Yeah. There was nothing. But I knew this is not smart. It's already not smart sitting here in this van like this in Texas.

[00:08:25] Come on, get real. And can you describe Beaumont, Texas, Dad? Because I've never been to Texas. Is it like, you know, I went to college in Statesboro, Georgia. And for anyone that doesn't know where that is, it is the southern part of the state of Georgia, about maybe 30 miles north of Savannah. And you drive for miles and don't see anything besides signs for Valdosta onions. It's like super rural. You better not run out of gas.

[00:08:52] One time I remember we did run out of gas and there were no streetlights and we had to call the cops because we didn't know where we were and we didn't know how to get home. So it's that kind of isolated place. Yes, it is. And this place is like that too. It's eastern Texas, close to the Louisiana state border. So it's a very rural area, very religious, footballs, very popular, conservative, what you would expect in Texas.

[00:09:21] Right. And it sounds like it's kind of like what I would describe a village and not that it's the same as a village in England. But when someone goes to the village that doesn't live here, people know about it. You know, certain people are here. They know who they are. And if anyone else comes around, you know, there's a suspicious van. I get a WhatsApp. It sounds like it might be that kind of nosy culture as well. Yes. And once again, a van with California license plates with three men sitting in it and one of them smoking a joint.

[00:09:51] Yes. It looks kind of suspicious in East Texas. Ah, yeah, I totally see it. OK, great. So what happened after you were arrested? Well, it took a couple of days to get a hearing because they automatically set our bond at $50,000 apiece. It was a felony drug possession. This was marijuana, but this was 1983. Back then, it was still considered something really horrific or whatever.

[00:10:19] So at the reduction hearing, I got to tell you, you'll love this. The courtroom was empty. It was just Randy, Art and the guard as we walked in. No one else was in the courtroom. While we were standing there, a door, I believe it was to the right, opened and this really old judge came walking in. I mean, to me at 20, he looked like he was 90. He shuffled across the floor toward the judge's desk.

[00:10:47] And as he did, he asked, are these the defendants? And the guard motioned his head and the judge said, I've never reduced a felony bond before. He then reduced our bond from $50,000 to $25,000, which meant for $2,500 each, 10% of the bond, we could get out. And we did. So we went on to Atlanta as we planned.

[00:11:13] And on the way, we found a quarter pound of the weed in the van still. They didn't take it. They must have missed it somehow. Wow. Okay. So you had some for the ride. And I'm imagining it was a felony because it was four to five pounds of weed. So the quantity of the weed made it a felony. Oh, yes. We were at least four pounds and could have been as much as six. So I don't even know the exact weight. They didn't even weigh it up when they sold it to us.

[00:11:42] And I've just got to ask that. I hope you don't mind. And it's not too personal for everyone that's listening. As you say, you're an open book. But like when you say you got out and ran Deanna Art $2,500 each. I know through the life that you've had that it's not like you just had thousands sitting in a bank account. But it seems like Art was doing quite well. And he was only 10 years older. So do you think he had some savings or did he get some money from when your dad died? I'm just wondering how this was financed.

[00:12:12] Well, first of all, Art worked for Pacific Gas and Electric. He was making $35 an hour in 83. That was a large amount of money. Telecommunication. Also, he had just received some kind of settlement for something. I'm not even sure what it was for around $14,000. That's why he called me anyway and said, come out here. I'll pay for your ticket because he had a little extra cash.

[00:12:37] So when you found out that your bond was reduced to $2,500, did you think that you'd get out? At that point, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't realize Art had somehow already contacted an attorney. And that's what we're about to speak about in just a moment. This attorney is the one that had all of this done. He's the one that got the bond reduced before we even walked in that door, which I had no idea. All right, then. So I'll be quiet and let you carry on. So that was in May.

[00:13:06] And it was in August when we had to return for our first quarter parents. We had no idea that would be our last quarter parents. Once we got there, I finally met the lawyer who got our bond reduced. His name was Sonny Cribs, and he made miracles happen. I'm telling you what. Besides getting our bond reduced, what he did was unbelievable.

[00:13:32] Art had paid him $15,000 to represent us, though, I've got to tell you. Wow. So Sonny explained to us that we were all going to plead guilty. I remember when he said that, I was thinking, say what? And then he said, Randy and myself were about to receive, get this, a $750 fine. Art would receive five years probation, but only serve two. Essentially, he was taking the rap.

[00:13:59] We only knew about the little bit of weed, less than an ounce that was under the front seat in a little cigar box. And Art knew about the rest in the back. So he took the rap for all of it. That was the story anyway. He then explained to Randy and myself, and I'm quoting, I didn't say this, but if you don't come back to Texas, you don't have to pay the fine. And I remember thinking, deal. I agree. No problem. I won't come back. And have you?

[00:14:30] Well, I've driven through the state. Other than that, no. I've had no reason to. You know, I know this is because they made you cut your hair when you were little, didn't they? Why do you say that? You mean when I was a kid and lived in Houston for a little while? Yeah. I hated that. My dad and I have gone to all different kinds of states. You know, you've tried to take me everywhere, but never Texas. And I feel like you've still got a grudge from when you were like, I don't know, 11 or 12 with your long blonde locks.

[00:14:59] Matter of fact, for anyone listening, we will post a picture of my dad when he was young with his long hair. He's given me the meanest look. If you insist. And they made you cut your hair in school. And I think that just turned you off Texas. Well, you know, Texas. Hey, Austin is a beautiful place. So, I mean, it's great people and all that. But other than that, as an adult, I had never visited anywhere else in Texas. So I can't really say I was a child when all of that. So, you know, I can't really hate Texas because of this.

[00:15:29] And remember, we were guilty of a crime. I mean, I can't go hating Texas because I was breaking the law. You know. Well, I meant maybe you didn't go back because you didn't want to have to pay the fine. Well, that too. Well, I didn't want to go to jail or anything either. So, you know. Right. Okay. All right. Maybe one day we'll go to Austin together because I have heard amazing things, especially in the recent years, about how Austin's quite modern for Texas, very diverse. Yes.

[00:15:57] And they have a big tech infrastructure, I think, as well. And, of course, the music scene is amazing. The art world. Yes. And I think the Black Pumas are from Texas, who you know I love. I've seen a few times. They're the band that sings colors. Or maybe they're from Houston. Austin or Houston. I'm not sure. But, okay. So we will post that picture of your beautiful hair. And sorry, I cut you off. So you haven't gone back to Texas because you just haven't. And that means you didn't have to pay the fine.

[00:16:27] So, Ronnie said, hey, if you don't have to, then we won't. And, Katie, the reason I'm telling you all this is my representation by Sonny Cribs is my link to the murder story. And anyone who ever had Sonny as a lawyer can never complain about their representation. This is the story of the murder of James Byrd, Jr.

[00:16:50] It was on Sunday, June 7, 1998, in the East Texas town of Jasper.

[00:17:16] A man by the name of James Byrd, Jr. was walking home in the early morning hours. A Ford pickup pulled beside him. And a man he recognized as Sean Barry, who was also from Jasper, was driving the truck. There were two other passengers. John William King, also known as Bill King, and Lawrence Brewer. James Byrd accepted the ride, and they ended up at some nearby woods.

[00:17:45] Well, when they got to the woods, everyone got out of the truck, and they offered James a drink. Without warning, Lawrence Brewer and Bill King began physically attacking James. They then started beating him with a baseball bat, taunting him the whole time. They even urinated on him. While he was still alive, they chained him by the ankles to the back of the truck. Bill King then drove three miles on a paved road before they finally stopped.

[00:18:14] And James Byrd was dead. So, Dad, do you think there was, I don't know if you know, but was there like a back and forth? Because I'm just picturing James being like, oh, wow, these guys are offering me a ride. And then he's being beat to death. Well, you got to understand it. A small town. He definitely recognized him. Never had trouble with him. Why else would he get in the truck like that? Now, he didn't know the other two, I don't think.

[00:18:41] I mean, he didn't know Lawrence Brewer. Lawrence Brewer was from prison. That's where Bill King had met him. And then they all moved in with Mr. Sean Berry. So, Dad, I don't know if you know, but are we sure that he got into the truck willingly? Yes. He did. Because it just feels like he's walking down the road. Someone offers him a ride, which I know it's happened before.

[00:19:09] But he gets in the truck and then he's beat to death. Well, without saying too much. Yes, they know he willingly got into the truck. Even when they arrived at the woods, they were all being kind to him. Right. Okay. It was pretty much John King or Bill King, excuse me, and Mr. Brewer that were the instigators. Sean Berry was more or less standing in the background. Right. And Sean Berry was driving the truck.

[00:19:38] Up to the woods. That's when Bill King took over. Right. Okay. So, sadly, James Byrd is dead because they've killed him? Yes. And then what happened? Oh, it's horrible. The three men then took what was left of his body and dumped him in front of a local African-American church. He was found later that Sunday morning when the sun rose. Right. So, this is just clearly a hate crime in that case.

[00:20:08] Oh, definitely fits the definition of a hate crime. They killed him for the color of his skin and no other reason. And did you say it was, no, it was 1983 when you went to California. What year is this? This is in 1998. So, I get that this is a hate crime, which is horrible and horrendous. I'm really surprised to be reading or hearing that this happened in 1998.

[00:20:38] I would expect this kind of thing to be happening in the 60s. Well, it did. I didn't realize it would still be happening in 1998. And I say that knowing that there's lots of racial tension. There's lots of names that we can mention of people that have been targeted and killed within conflicts with the police. But in this instance where people dumped the body of a black man, an African-American church in 1998?

[00:21:07] That's what you're telling me? Yes. And killed in such a way, baby. It was definitely a hate crime. It fit the definition of a hate crime without a doubt. But in such a horrific way. When was the last time anything like this seen? You would have to go back to the 60s and such, early 70s, before you could even begin to see stuff like this, especially when you had the KKK linked to it. So how were the KKK linked to it? We'll tell you here in just a minute.

[00:21:37] I don't want to give up too much information there. All right. Go on then. So Jasper County Sheriff Billy Riles led the investigation. He quickly realized that the initial car tracks on the road were drag marks left behind by James's body. At first, he thought that they were car tracks. Along this path, they found several pieces of evidence, including keys, empty beer cans,

[00:22:05] but most importantly, a Zippo lighter engraved with a strange symbol. The symbol, after they investigated, was three Ks back-to-back forming a triangle. It was the KKK. The lighter also had the word possum, which later turned out to be Bill King's nickname in prison. I think it's interesting that they didn't recognize the KKK symbol right away.

[00:22:33] Having said that, I'm not sure that I would. I mean, in 1998, I don't think you see that unless you're part of that world. Was it a different representation of the symbol? Yes. I grew up in the 70s. I've never seen any, and in the South, but I've never seen anything like this before. It was essentially the backs of the Ks connected together in a triangle. Ah, okay. So you really couldn't tell it was three Ks unless someone said, see the Ks?

[00:23:04] You get what I mean? It was just a strange symbol. Yeah, so it's kind of like an insider symbol. You know it if you know it, but if you don't know it, then you can be inconspicuous. Investigators claimed to not know what it meant at first, and they finally found out what it was. And I say that because you're in East Texas and the investigators were all white. I do not know. And any idea why Bill King's nickname was Possum?

[00:23:31] Is Possum like some kind of reference in the criminal world that you know of? It was his name in prison. Okay. Right. Well, I mean, possums are disgusting. Well, they look disgusting. I'll tell you that. Okay. Well, within hours, police had received a tip from a witness who had seen James riding in the back of the pickup truck around 1 to 2.30. The description of the truck led them to Sean Berry, who owned a vehicle that matched the witness's account.

[00:24:00] Now, Sean Berry lived with Bill King and Lawrence Brewer. Both of them had met in prison, like I told you earlier. Brewer especially was a white supremacist. And I say especially because King really wasn't until he went to prison and met Brewer. So when they got out of prison, they went and moved in with Sean Berry. Because the case was so clearly racially motivated, FBI officials in Beaumont, Texas also joined the investigation.

[00:24:30] They weren't leading the investigation. They were just assisting in it. But the evidence was clearly overwhelming anyway. It only took them, I mean, hours they had all three of them arrested. So after three separate trials, all three men were found guilty of capital murder. Lawrence Brewer and Bill King received death sentences, while Sean Berry, who was seen as less culpable in the attack, was sentenced to life in prison.

[00:24:58] Lawrence Brewer was executed in 2011. Bill King, however, appealed his conviction. He claimed, get this now, inadequate representation by attorney Sonny Cribs. I know for a fact that Bill King received the best representation possible. Despite this, King continued his appeals. So in February in 2018, his final appeal was denied and he was executed in 2019.

[00:25:29] I believe his appeals were nothing more than delaying his execution. He knew the outcome of them. I'm here. I'm just lost for words. You can't put it in words. It's such a horrific crime. I got to explain. The torso was ripped. Or should I say the head and shoulders ripped from the torso. That's how they found the body. It was terrible. It was international.

[00:25:58] You had all kinds of people come into Texas. I mean, it became a circus in this small town of Jasper for a while there. I just can't believe that I was alive when this happened. Well, you were so young at that time. That's not something you'd be interested in, concerned about. Well, I mean, I would have been 10, but it's just like, I don't know. I guess it's because, you know, we grew up in quite a racially divided areas.

[00:26:26] You know, I'm not saying that it's less or more so than this, but it was an area that had fast growth and the majority of white people became the minority. Other people moved in. And with the elders in the community, there's quite a lot of tension and there's quite a lot of racial slurs where we grew up. It's just the way it is. I've never heard of anything like this happening before within like the last 30 years. I agree.

[00:26:51] I would like to say that I can remember when this was on the news and telling your mother that Sonny Cribs, that's my attorney, as well as I can remember the same with the Brown McGee story and the Emmanuel Hammond story telling mom, I know him. I know him. I bet she just after a while just thought, yeah, there's another one. Started yawning, bored. Yeah.

[00:27:17] And that's where the idea for MurderLink came from, from my mom's enthusiasm. All right. So they've been convicted. They've been executed once eligible for parole in 14 years. How did the community react? Well, at the time they were able, you know, the people, local church leaders, local community leaders, local police officers, they did everything they could to keep it down, to keep the violence, demonstrations, and such down.

[00:27:48] But as I said, the town had turned into a circus. You had marching demonstrations that were made by both the KKK and the Black Panthers on the same day, at the same time. You had Representative Maxine Waters come down there. And you even had Reverend Jesse Jackson. He's a civil rights activist. A longtime civil rights activist. He actually knew Dr. Martin Luther King.

[00:28:13] It's racially nearly evenly split between Black and white residents. And Dad, I'm just kind of like looking up articles as you're speaking. Sorry. And I just found one that kind of paints a picture of what it was like at that time. I just want to read a bit, if you don't mind. Sure. So this is an article from June 27th, 1998. So it's by Terry Langford, T-E-R-R-I-L-A-N-G-F-O-R-D. And it's for the Washington Post.

[00:28:44] And it's basically saying that white hooded Ku Klux Klan members who were waving Confederate flags marched today in the Texas town where three men allegedly dragged a Black man to his death behind a pickup truck. So this is before they were convicted. And why I find it interesting is because you can kind of get a sense of the fact that the Ku Klux Klan is there saying, we denounce this murder. It was nothing to do with us.

[00:29:12] But we're here to openly denounce it with our freedom of speech. And then you have Black activists there kind of standing off with the KKK. So it says, as about 20 Klan members paraded into the courthouse square, about 50 Black activists unloaded rifles and their weapons from trunks. Shouting Black power, the counter demonstrators pointed shotguns, rifles, and other weapons

[00:29:41] in the air as they marched. And I'm just paraphrasing as I go on. It says that the white men heckled the Black men and law enforcement rushed in to prevent a confrontation. Black activists tried and failed twice to pass through a police barricade. So there's lots going on. And it's interesting that the Ku Klux Klan is saying that we are not there in support of the murder. It was nothing to do with us. But we will have our freedom of speech.

[00:30:11] Of course, that's going to stir up so many emotions for the Black community that feel that a man that's part of their community was just completely and devastatedly murdered because of his race. I mean, it just seems like this is a pot that's just waiting to boil over. Without a doubt, babe. And do keep in mind, once again, especially back then, that was KKK territory. It really was.

[00:30:38] That area was just as South Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, that you still had people who claimed to be part of the KKK. Yeah. And it sounds like I'm just sorry, still looking at it. There's lots going on. So it says an anti-Klan demonstrator was arrested because the anti-Klan demonstrators were rocking the vehicle that the Klan members were in. But most importantly, there's a statement from Byrd's family.

[00:31:05] So on that night, Byrd's family had called for peace and they said, let this horrendous violation of the sanctity of life not be a spark that ignites more hatred and retribution. Rather, let this be a wake up call for America and for all Americans. May it spark a new cleansing fire of self-examination and reflection. It actually says here that Jesse L. Jackson echoed this message and he hoped that Jasper residents would stay away from the Klan rally.

[00:31:35] So it's definitely an emotionally charged aftermath that happened off the back of this for both communities. Yes, it is. And I'd like to go ahead and say a few things about James Byrd Jr. before we finish this. He was a talented singer who played a piano and trumpet. Everyone described him as a loving and kind person.

[00:31:58] In his honor, Jasper, city council, declared June 7, 2023 as James Byrd Jr. Day and established James Byrd Jr. Memorial Park in 1999. One particularly remarkable detail is James Byrd's only son opposed the death penalty for his father's killer. He was a deeply religious man and he believed that the death penalty was wrong, even in such a horrific case.

[00:32:28] Now we want to end it with something else. In 2001, Texas Governor Rick Perry signed the James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Act into law, strengthening the punishments for crimes motivated by bias. In contrast, former Governor George W. Bush had refused to sign the bill, claiming that all crimes are hate crimes. And he did not even attend James Byrd Jr.'s funeral.

[00:32:58] Do we know if that's George W. Bush Sr. or Jr. that did that? No, Sr. is H.W. Bush. Ah, okay, great. George W., yes. I just find it remarkable to say that all crimes are hate crimes. That's ridiculous. So a child stealing a piece of candy from the store is a hate crime. No, all crimes are not hate crimes. When someone is targeted for who they are, what they think, the color of their skin, how

[00:33:27] they live, that's a hate crime. So the murder of James Byrd Jr. remains a painful reminder of the deep scars of racism in America. Jasper, Texas has worked hard to honor James' memory and move forward. But the legacy of this crime will never be forgotten. I'm still a bit lost for words. Sorry. I know we usually have a bit of a wrap up. I think I'm still struggling with the fact that it's 1998. Not that it's ever right.

[00:33:56] But I remember like learning all of the civil rights movements and everything that happened back in the 60s. And it just seems like such a recent story. I know you said when we were speaking earlier that you had watched a film that portrayed this. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? It's a movie called Jasper, Texas. It seems to be pretty accurate in the way that they portray the story.

[00:34:25] It's John Voight as Sheriff Rawls. And Louis Gossett Jr. is one of the community leaders, one of the religious community leaders. But it pretty much accurately tells the story. It would be something you'd want to watch if you have an interest in this. And just to kind of prepare people, because I found myself grimacing. As you were going through this, is the film quite graphic? Oh, yes. They show evidence pictures.

[00:34:51] I'm sure that they're Hollywood made up evidence pictures, but they're pretty graphic. Okay, right. So for anyone that's checking that out, just make sure that you keep that in mind. You've got a strong stomach. Yeah, really sad, Dad. From the point of our podcast, these are the small links. This is what it's about, isn't it? It's kind of seeing how you interact with people.

[00:35:14] I think, in all honesty, it's not a huge stretch that you had representation by a lawyer that then was on a murder case, because that's what lawyers do. But for it to be such an indescribable case, I think it's important that we're talking about it today, because I didn't know about it. Well, I would have thought you would, but in today's world, with so much information being fed to everybody on a constant basis.

[00:35:41] That's an interesting point, because when we're looking at some of this murder history and we're trying to just cross-check the facts, a lot of the stories that we're sharing are pre-2000s, pre-2005. And so I know that now this is a famous case, having looked it up just a moment ago. But many of them don't get the viral effect that they would if they happened now, because they happened in the 90s or the 80s.

[00:36:09] And I think with this particular case, unless you're reading an article that's talking about hate crimes, you know, you have to, like, search for it. Yes, and sadly, we live in a world where a mass shooting occurs. How often now here in America? So once again, it's easy for a story like this to get lost. I don't know about one like this, but I know what you mean about the shootings and stuff like that. It's really easy to become desensitized to it. Such a sad story. I think we'll leave it there.

[00:36:39] We have got an interesting one for you next week, so make sure you tune in. We hope that you enjoyed listening to this story. If you've got your own murder links, you know what to do. You can email us at hello at murderlink.com. You can connect with us on Instagram. We would love to hear from you. Make sure that you leave us a review. Make sure that you go back and listen to any other episodes. There's a lot there for you to dig your teeth into.

[00:37:01] And I think each one is a stepping stone to understanding how these murder links came to be because they tell tidbits and tales about my dad and the amazing, colorful, interesting, different life that he's led. It's entertaining, I'm hoping, anyway. Yeah, it is. I mean, Dad, I get so many people saying, actually, Ty said it today. She's like, your dad's such a good storyteller. Thank you.

[00:37:29] Yeah, I think people are enjoying the stories. And that's what it's all about. It's just kind of sharing with people and getting their take on it, too. That's all good, but we want to hear your story. So please, if you have any connection to any murders, any links at all, just let us know. Contact us, murderlink.com. Other than that, be sure to like, share, and subscribe.

[00:37:57] And thank you so much for listening today. Thanks, everyone. Bye.