6. Monster In The Morgue

[00:00:03] To think that you're doing bad enough an arrest for these two horrendous murders that were cold cases that had been reinvestigated because of the new technology, to suddenly find yourself with all of this evidence to think, oh, this is so much bigger than they had gone in for, must have been quite shocking as well.

[00:00:30] Welcome to our first live episode of Murder Link, Claire. Thank you so much for coming. It's so good to meet you.

[00:00:36] Thank you for having me.

[00:00:36] Yes, absolutely. And my dad is here in London from Atlanta.

[00:00:41] Yes.

[00:00:41] So.

[00:00:42] And thank you, Claire, for being here.

[00:00:44] Oh, no, of course.

[00:00:45] It's an exciting experience. And for anyone that's listening or watching, this is the first time that I've met Claire, but we've known each other for about three years, I would say.

[00:00:53] Yep.

[00:00:53] And we've been working behind the scenes on some other professional products. And I kept mentioning this podcast. And one day you were just like, what is this podcast? And I told you, and you were like, I've got to be on it. I've got this amazing story to share.

[00:01:06] Absolutely. And I think testament to the theory that you have about everybody having a murder link. I think probably most people, if you probably don't have to dig that deep to think of everyone that they have. So yeah, when you said that, I was like, actually, that definitely is quite a notorious one, as we will obviously go on to talk about.

[00:01:26] Yes. And it's worth mentioning that this one is a bit of a shocker, a bit of a horror. I mean, they all are. But if you're listening to this, I want you to know that this particular case obviously involves murder, as well as sexual assault.

[00:01:39] There's gruesome details, many victims. So anyone that might be a bit sensitive to that, just be aware of that. Yeah. And let's get started. So do you want to tell us your connection and a bit about the case?

[00:01:53] Sure. So the connection that I have, which I'll go into in a second, but I guess we'll start with the murderer himself, is a guy called David Fuller.

[00:02:03] He was eventually arrested very recently off the back of things that we will talk about in 2008. And the original cases were two murders all the way back to 1990, sorry, 1987.

[00:02:24] Wow.

[00:02:24] Wow. And those were known as the bed set murders. And for those, because I know that you have a big listener based in the US and is a bed set something that I've known in the US?

[00:02:34] No.

[00:02:35] I don't even know what it is.

[00:02:36] No.

[00:02:36] I've lived here for so long.

[00:02:37] Okay. So bed set is almost like, it's like another word for a flat or apartment, I suppose.

[00:02:42] Yeah.

[00:02:42] The very self-contained, typically one person might live in it. And it tends to be that everything is kind of contained in one room, hence bed set.

[00:02:50] So bed set murders are because he very specifically targeted and stalked his two victims in advance to the bed sets where they both lived.

[00:03:01] So that's kind of a commonality in the links of the two victims that he had. So that's the name of the original murders that took place in 1987.

[00:03:11] In terms of my link to the murder, I suppose if we backtrack to 1987, I wasn't actually living in the UK at the time.

[00:03:21] These murders took place in Tunbridge Wells, which is a, it's renowned as being a very lovely suburban town in Kent.

[00:03:30] And I think one of the most shocking parts of this is, I guess you just don't really expect those things to happen at all.

[00:03:37] It's something you kind of read about in the news or you see on TV shows, but actually for something like this to have happened on your doorstep is, is quite shocking.

[00:03:47] But at the time in 1987, I was actually living in Venezuela, which is where I grew up.

[00:03:53] And around about that time, my parents were making the decision for us all to move back to the UK because they have roots in the UK,

[00:04:01] because they felt that Venezuela and Caracas in particular, where we lived, wasn't necessarily the safest place to live.

[00:04:07] So ironically, we moved to Tunbridge Wells and I think there's quite a, quite a contrast there in thinking you've moved to this like haven.

[00:04:16] But little did we know a year subsequent to that, what had actually happened.

[00:04:20] So the story that we'll talk about is my reflections of it since then.

[00:04:26] And in particular in the last few years, since a very well-known documentary came out,

[00:04:31] citing all of the story and basically how that's kind of like surfaced or resurfaced the case.

[00:04:37] And also how the current population of the town, albeit sort of some 30 years later,

[00:04:44] is still quite shocked by the events that took place in that.

[00:04:47] So it's more of a reflective view on that.

[00:04:52] So that's the kind of the overview of the story.

[00:04:56] The link in order to kind of tie it to the show in terms of why it's at Murderlink is actually a two-way link.

[00:05:04] So it's my son's hairdresser, has a very good friend who used to work with David Fuller when he was an electrician at the Ken and Sussex Hospital,

[00:05:14] which is where the second part of his crimes took place, or certainly those that are known,

[00:05:20] which is where he very sadly abused over 100 bodies in the mortuary that he had full access to and was undetected for many, many years doing this.

[00:05:36] And in fact, he recorded the evidence of this through photography that he kept.

[00:05:43] And ultimately, this is how obviously it was discovered.

[00:05:46] But had it not been for his own documentation of it, who knows how long it would have been going on for.

[00:05:53] Yeah, and I don't think anyone would know.

[00:05:55] And you mentioned the community.

[00:05:57] This must have impacted so many people in the local community who had relatives at this hospital.

[00:06:05] And it's just, it's probably what it must be the most disgusting thing I've ever read.

[00:06:10] So yeah, I just can't imagine how it rocked that world.

[00:06:12] And it was a span of such a long time that this occurred as well.

[00:06:15] For you to say that it was such a, the area that you moved to was such a lovely place, such a safe place.

[00:06:23] The perception in America is that all of England is like that.

[00:06:27] So to have such a gruesome story like this, it's just unbelievable.

[00:06:32] And for one that spans so many, so many years as well, and to have gone undetected.

[00:06:38] And I think it adds to it that so many, especially that the latter crimes took place in hospital, which is meant to be a safe place.

[00:06:47] And at the very last moments of your life, when you're meant to be at peace, to think that those, you know, those bodies had to succumb what they did.

[00:06:55] And the family members that were obviously having to go through their own grief to then be notified some years later.

[00:07:02] Obviously, each of them had to be individually notified of what had happened.

[00:07:07] It is, yeah, it just, it has shocked so many people.

[00:07:12] And obviously some people knew him personally, but even without having a direct personal connection, you start to connect yourself.

[00:07:20] And I know this from many people I've spoken to, obviously in the local area about the cases, obviously it comes up in conversation that you can't help but place yourself in the places that you knew he was at.

[00:07:34] So, for example, during the time and the timescales aren't quite the same, but the he was he was known to frequent a very small local cemetery.

[00:07:44] And there was some potential stalking of the victims or the fact that it's a cemetery could perhaps lead us to wonder what he was doing there or what his potential thoughts were.

[00:07:57] But that is a place, and I really hope my mum's not listening, but me and my friends as teenagers used to sometimes go and hang out with a walkthrough.

[00:08:06] And so you put yourself back to, and even though the time friends aren't the same, you're like, gosh, this guy was in that place.

[00:08:13] And the Kent and Sussex Hospital, I myself was there for a week.

[00:08:17] It wasn't anything major, but I ended up being there for an entire week.

[00:08:20] And the timescales work to the time during which he would have been there.

[00:08:24] So it just makes you think, was there a time when I was, I don't know, in the shower?

[00:08:29] Maybe he was doing the electrics. Did I walk past him in the corridor?

[00:08:31] Or he was, luckily I didn't end up in the mortuary, but, you know, we were within that same building.

[00:08:38] And it really starts to make you question so much about how that could have gone on for as long as it did.

[00:08:46] And also how somebody can continue to just carry out such horrific crimes over and over and document them.

[00:08:55] And Jody, you were saying just before we started recording that they had like a database where he was logging.

[00:09:02] He was logging his victims by name.

[00:09:04] So he was looking through the registers.

[00:09:07] And you also said that he was, because I know that you've looked into this as well.

[00:09:10] Yes.

[00:09:11] He was also looking up his victims on Facebook.

[00:09:15] Oh, yeah, the victims of the mortuary.

[00:09:17] Yes, the ones that he committed the crimes against at the mortuary.

[00:09:20] Yes.

[00:09:21] But I would like to bring up about the two victims, Wendy Nell and Caroline Pierce, I believe was the last name.

[00:09:27] The two murder victims.

[00:09:28] Yes, correct.

[00:09:29] Yes, that started it.

[00:09:30] And what I understand is when he murdered them, he did sexually assault them.

[00:09:35] And they believe it was either during them dying or shortly afterwards.

[00:09:39] And what I'm saying is I think that that might have been the percussor that took him to the point where he went to the hospital and committed these acts.

[00:09:47] I believe that sent him in that direction.

[00:09:50] So, yeah, it's interesting because you'd almost think of some way of doing this.

[00:09:56] And a safer way for him to do it.

[00:10:00] Yes.

[00:10:00] There may even have been, you know, who knows sort of what was going through his mind, but maybe he saw that as a lesser crime if he could get his fix that way without actually having to commit a murder as well.

[00:10:13] Who knows if there was some remorse involved, although from what I've seen and read, there appears to have been little sign of a huge amount of remorse.

[00:10:22] I understand when he was arrested, he told the police that he felt like it was a residual psychological issue.

[00:10:31] And I believe he was referring to the murders.

[00:10:34] He had gotten over them and had become a Christian is what he claimed.

[00:10:39] And so these were just residual crimes from his murder is the way he looked at it.

[00:10:46] You talk about self delusional.

[00:10:47] And also to be able to remove yourself so much from the act to actually rationalize it in that way.

[00:10:56] It speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[00:10:58] Or something so horrendous.

[00:11:01] And so at such volume over so many years.

[00:11:05] Yes.

[00:11:05] So many times.

[00:11:06] So many times.

[00:11:07] So many times.

[00:11:09] So, yeah, I almost don't want to do it because I actually struggled with this case, but I'm aware that we're talking about it.

[00:11:14] And I just want to make sure that anyone that doesn't know the case, particularly in Atlanta, where we've been doing a lot of the podcast episodes, is aware of the facts.

[00:11:24] So I don't know if you know if he was from the area, but he committed his crimes in this one area, which is Royal Tunbridge.

[00:11:30] Royal Tunbridge Wells.

[00:11:31] Yeah.

[00:11:31] He lived in a little town that's just outside Tunbridge Wells.

[00:11:35] To my knowledge, I think he was local.

[00:11:39] Right.

[00:11:39] But yes, certainly the entire time this was happening, he was within that local area and working as well there.

[00:11:50] And the documentary actually goes into quite a lot of the story of how he first came about his victims.

[00:11:58] So one of them worked in a well-known shop called Super Snaps.

[00:12:03] Again, I remember going into Super Snaps back in the day when you take your films in and get them developed for digital cameras.

[00:12:10] That actually no longer exists as that brand.

[00:12:13] But one of the victims, his first victim actually worked in that shop.

[00:12:17] So it's looking back, they can piece together how he knew his victims and subsequently stalked them before then, obviously carrying out the crime.

[00:12:30] And then Caroline, his second victim, was waitressing in a restaurant that also he frequented.

[00:12:36] So he was very, very known or certainly very, very much around in the local area of Tunbridge Wells.

[00:12:43] Can you clarify, you lived there after the fact of those murders?

[00:12:47] Correct.

[00:12:48] So I moved in 88.

[00:12:50] Yes.

[00:12:50] So just a year after.

[00:12:51] So although in 87, because now when I look back and speak to people who were there at the time, it was clearly these things were happening in a very small area.

[00:13:01] There was a very concerned community.

[00:13:02] It was being talked about the entire time because it was like, who is who is this person and how are they not being caught?

[00:13:09] By the time I moved, number one, the murders had stopped.

[00:13:13] And number two, obviously, I was 10 years old.

[00:13:14] So it's not necessarily news that I would have been privy to in the same way as perhaps if that had been now where I'm just 21.

[00:13:23] And just for people listening, and I know you live there now, how far is this from London, would you say?

[00:13:29] So you can get into London in like, train is like 45 minutes to an hour or something like that.

[00:13:33] So it's very much a London commuter town.

[00:13:36] So many, many people actually choose to live in Tunbridge Wells because you get that little taste of suburbia.

[00:13:42] It's great for raising kids.

[00:13:44] It's got really good schools, but it's very, very commutable into London.

[00:13:48] So for many people, and especially during COVID, there was a huge influx of remote workers that wanted to just be a bit outside of London.

[00:13:57] It's slightly more affordable than London property wise.

[00:14:01] So it is a pretty sought after location for especially people that want to kind of have that access.

[00:14:07] Yeah, no, but it felt safe.

[00:14:09] And it still does.

[00:14:11] And I suppose nowhere is entirely safe.

[00:14:14] And I think it's the reality of the world that we live in.

[00:14:17] And even within the town, there are some pockets that you might, you know, some parks that you just be like, just don't walk there at night.

[00:14:24] But I think there's a difference between perhaps, say, a one-off violent teen crime or drug-related crime to something of this nature, which is not necessarily what you want kind of like your town kind of pinned on a map for, is it?

[00:14:39] No, no, not at all.

[00:14:40] And so David Fuller committed these murders.

[00:14:44] And what were the victims' names?

[00:14:46] So Wendy Snow and Caroline.

[00:14:50] Wendy Nail and Caroline Pierce.

[00:14:52] Caroline Pierce.

[00:14:53] And this is in 1987.

[00:14:54] I think it's the second half of 1987.

[00:14:57] And then we don't know about David Fuller then because he's not caught at that stage.

[00:15:02] He's not caught because at the time there wasn't the technology there is now around DNA testing.

[00:15:08] So although they had been able to do all of the forensics, they weren't able to match him with anything at that point.

[00:15:15] And also, if I could point out, from what I've seen of the pictures and read about him, he seemed to be a demure, very low-key, the kind of guy.

[00:15:25] I mean, just by looking at him, glasses.

[00:15:27] He looked like if someone, if he walked by you, you would pay no attention to this man.

[00:15:32] And I don't think anyone did.

[00:15:34] And I think that's the thing.

[00:15:35] I think he was quite almost elusive, transparent.

[00:15:39] He was just, he blended in.

[00:15:41] Oh, yes.

[00:15:41] And the connection I spoke about earlier that worked with him at the hospital, I briefly know through speaking with the hairdresser, but was immensely shocked to find this out.

[00:15:53] It wasn't sort of a case of, oh, yeah, I always thought he was a bit dodgy.

[00:15:57] It was like it shocked people.

[00:16:00] And again, we were talking earlier before the show that he was married with children.

[00:16:04] And clearly they would have been entirely unaware of all of this.

[00:16:08] So the shock to find this guy who is just like a regular guy next door and, yeah, just to look at the images of him.

[00:16:18] He doesn't look like what you would expect somebody like that to look like.

[00:16:23] He looked like a father.

[00:16:25] That's the thing.

[00:16:25] He must have had two different lives because he had four children and a wife.

[00:16:31] And I just don't know where someone even finds the time with four children and a wife to do this.

[00:16:36] I was about to say, and even in his day-to-day job as an electrician, like how did he find the time?

[00:16:42] And I think there was an element of fearlessness.

[00:16:45] And this comes up in one of the episodes in the documentary that there was one particular time where he was almost caught in the act.

[00:16:54] And they show, I don't think they show, but I think they allude to a video that's being recorded.

[00:17:00] And he turned the lights off.

[00:17:03] And you would normally expect to that point if you're about to get caught mid-act that you might stop the act.

[00:17:10] But he waited for the person to leave and then carried on.

[00:17:13] So, again, I suppose it intrigues me how somebody's mind can get to the level where they can commit these crimes, where they're almost getting caught.

[00:17:28] And it's just this almost obsession of what drives it and what drives you to continue doing it despite the impact.

[00:17:41] And I guess what you were saying before is maybe he justified it as in, well, you know, they're not alive.

[00:17:45] Maybe that was his way of justifying his behaviors.

[00:17:49] Well, I wonder his intelligence level.

[00:17:52] Did he get away all those years because he was so smart or was it just luck because he committed so many crimes, so many different crimes?

[00:18:04] Right.

[00:18:04] How did he get away so much?

[00:18:06] I mean, how in the world could you do this?

[00:18:07] And I read that there was an inquiry in the hospital afterwards, and I think over 2,000 people were interviewed.

[00:18:13] So that just shows how widespread this is.

[00:18:15] This has affected so many lives from the victims, from his own family, from the community.

[00:18:20] And they've now put further safeguards in place to protect from this type of thing happening because there must have been logs or he must have had so much access as an electrician, as you say, that he could kind of go around unchecked.

[00:18:36] You just think someone else would have been there.

[00:18:38] Yeah.

[00:18:38] Yeah.

[00:18:38] And I think he probably, well, he obviously abused the rights that he had, being that he was an electrician.

[00:18:47] You're right, would have given him access to every single area of the hospital.

[00:18:51] And the inquiry is in terms of, you know, and since then there's been all sorts of calls for reforming security, especially around places like mortuaries.

[00:19:05] So, you know, there's definitely been sort of wider impacts as a reflection of this.

[00:19:12] But yes, for him to be able to just go about and going back to what we were saying, even how was he carrying out his day-to-day job whilst carrying out and documenting all of these acts?

[00:19:24] Yes. And then in his own time was presumably having to deal with the images that, as we discussed, he was hiding in floppy disks for those of those that are old enough to remember what they are.

[00:19:36] Like they were just sellotaped behind his desk.

[00:19:39] And I, my personal belief is that he thought he was home and dry because he didn't seem to be making any huge, huge efforts to hide what he was doing.

[00:19:51] Or alternatively, was there a part of him that just wanted to get caught? I don't know.

[00:19:54] I agree totally. And also, how was he able to just go to work, commit these crimes, and then the next day go home, turn it off and be dad?

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:05] Be a husband.

[00:20:06] It's that psychopathic behavior of just being able to completely switch off any empathy and assume a different role and neglect to reflect on what you've been doing with the rest of your day.

[00:20:22] Well, it was such a high volume of recordings and such.

[00:20:25] Yeah.

[00:20:25] So it showed this was a nightly thing with him. This was not like, oh, every month or so.

[00:20:30] It wasn't a one-off.

[00:20:31] Clearly, this was constant, him doing this for 15 years.

[00:20:34] And let's also assume, because I believe it was around 100-ish that were eventually kind of like confirmed, and that will be based on the evidence that was found.

[00:20:49] But who's to know whether there were more that he didn't document or that didn't get found that could be added to the list?

[00:20:58] My understanding, there were 10 victims they couldn't identify. They didn't know who they were.

[00:21:03] 10 more victims?

[00:21:04] No, there were 10 of the mortuary victims that he had taken pictures of. Now, were they homeless people or something along that line that were in the morgue?

[00:21:13] I see.

[00:21:13] Do you understand what I mean? They couldn't identify who they were.

[00:21:15] Or maybe they were so decomposed or whatnot.

[00:21:19] Yes.

[00:21:22] And actually, that sort of leads on to, which you alluded to at the start, this period of time during which, so he committed the two murders.

[00:21:33] And then the next activity that's known for him is in 2005, which is when they first start recording, or they first see his recordings of what he was doing at the mortuary, which then kind of led him to be known as, you know, he's almost more known for that side of the crimes and the murders.

[00:21:52] But what happened in that time in between, I think, is the question. Certainly, when I watched the documentary, because I was aware of clearly this murder, but the documentary really kind of brought more of it and more of the detail of it.

[00:22:07] But for me, the biggest takeaway, and when I've spoken to then others in the area about it, it's the biggest takeaway. It's like, what happened in that gap?

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] And you were saying that he'd potentially found Christianity and whether or not he was able to genuinely hold back for that time or not. I believe there's inquiries into that, because certainly those of us that view the programmes are not the only ones that are asking that question.

[00:22:31] So I'm sure that's being investigated. But that to me was the biggest anomaly. It's like, there's a really big gap. And what was happening in that time?

[00:22:42] It's a big question.

[00:22:44] It's a big question.

[00:22:44] It's huge. And I think for anyone that's not familiar with the case, so the murders happened in 1987. And then he was found by DNA, right?

[00:22:54] So he was arrested for the murders based on the DNA that they took from the 1987 crime scenes, which through advanced DNA analysis, they were able to tie him, I think, through a family link as the person that had left DNA at both murder sites.

[00:23:11] Correct.

[00:23:12] And I believe that was in 2005 when the DNA testing was done.

[00:23:16] Right. So they go to his house and they arrest him for the murders of those two women in 1987. And they start going through his house and they find his thousands, I believe, of files and pictures and all of his documents hidden.

[00:23:32] I think it was like tape behind a desk in a corner. They find these drives with all this information that incriminates himself.

[00:23:42] And I read an article that said the police officers found the files. They were looking at them and they were like, why did the people look dead? And then the penny dropped.

[00:23:50] Yeah.

[00:23:50] And we're trying to be as respectful as possible. But we're talking about the fact that he basically sexually abused people that had passed away in a place of trust over and over and over again. He would revisit the same victims.

[00:24:03] And through the evidence that he left, police were able to notify the family members of those victims.

[00:24:14] And I mean, it just blows my mind on all levels. His family having to process that, the victims families having to process that, him doing it over and over. I just I can't comprehend.

[00:24:25] Yeah. And all of his colleagues that were there at the time probably thinking, how did none of us pick this up, let alone the actual systems that should have picked it up?

[00:24:33] But it leaves it leaves a huge ripple effect. Huge.

[00:24:37] Well, it was so gruesome. It became so bad. The victims ranged in age from nine to over 100 years of age.

[00:24:46] The woman that was 100 years of age had died of cancer.

[00:24:50] So to imagine him even being interested, what in the world was going on in this man's head?

[00:24:59] I think that's probably a question that luckily none of us will ever be able to answer because it's a level of mental sickness that I think hopefully nobody in this room will ever experience.

[00:25:17] But I think the fact that that he wasn't initially able to be found through DNA because he was, as you said, this respectable member of the community, he didn't even have a criminal record.

[00:25:28] The only reason he was found was through matching a a near match from a relative of his who wasn't on the record.

[00:25:36] And then from there, they were able to then gather the DNA that eventually, because obviously the technology had got to that place in later years, you know, they were able to make the arrest.

[00:25:48] And then to think that you're doing bad enough an arrest for these two horrendous murders that were cold cases that had been reinvestigated because of the new technology to suddenly find yourself with all of this evidence to think, oh, this is so much bigger than they had gone in for.

[00:26:09] Must have been quite shocking as well for even for the team that found all of this.

[00:26:13] Exactly. And some of them are having psychological issues. I've read some of the investigators are having mental issues over this case.

[00:26:20] Yeah, I think you would, because I think what is known and what has been released through the press or through the documentary that has been subsequent release, which is on, I believe it's on now and Sky and potentially one other channel.

[00:26:39] I think scratches the surface of what is bad enough.

[00:26:43] But, you know, what the investigators that had to trudge through all of that evidence would have to have gone through it.

[00:26:54] I just don't. Yeah, I don't know how you get through that without having to have some damage yourself.

[00:26:57] Well, it took them a year to go through all the images. And from what I've seen, it's anywhere from 900,000 to millions of images that they had to go through.

[00:27:09] I believe he had images of the people that he abused and then also of underage children.

[00:27:14] Yes, four million images is what I've read of underage children that had nothing to do with the mortuary.

[00:27:21] Yeah. So it does make you wonder what happened during that gap.

[00:27:25] And I know an article that I read said that they were investigating that.

[00:27:28] But if we're honest, that would bring closure to possibly some victims' families.

[00:27:33] But he is never getting out and nor should he because he's clearly a danger to society.

[00:27:37] And I think what would be interesting to see is a documentary has obviously been created, which very much takes you through the story, takes you through the case.

[00:27:49] In the way that has been done with other cases, I think it would be really interesting to really investigate more what drives somebody to commit this.

[00:27:59] What is the actual condition? What is the background?

[00:28:02] Because, OK, this particular case is fortunately very much in the minority.

[00:28:08] But there are so many crimes that I genuinely believe could potentially be prevented by understanding what the triggers are that can lead somebody to commit these things and could help with prevention of crime by doing that analytical and psychological research into the perpetrators themselves.

[00:28:29] Hopefully he will cooperate and allow them to analyze himself.

[00:28:33] Yeah, it would be great if he did all that. Sounds like self-awareness perhaps isn't his huge rate.

[00:28:38] But if he was able to, in just a very cold analytical way, just give the facts and allow that.

[00:28:46] I'm not saying anything good can ever come out of this case.

[00:28:48] But, you know, if something could come out that could potentially help future cases, it will be if they're at a much lesser scale.

[00:29:01] Just by being able to identify what the triggers and the signs are, psychological profiling can be so, so effective.

[00:29:10] I wonder, was it childhood neglect, childhood abuse, or was he just born a sociopath?

[00:29:16] What put him on that trail to becoming what he was?

[00:29:20] And that's something that I find a fascinating topic in terms of is somebody, and I believe there is a show called Born to Kill,

[00:29:29] is somebody just born with that predisposition and they will go ahead with it.

[00:29:34] The natural nurture thing, I think from a completely non-professional perspective, because I have no professional expertise,

[00:29:44] this is purely an opinion, but in my opinion, it's a combination of factors.

[00:29:49] I think you're potentially born with the predisposition.

[00:29:52] And then if the right environment leads you to it, then that can lead people to various different forms of crime,

[00:30:00] because you do hear of people that have horrific backgrounds that don't go on to commit these and vice versa.

[00:30:08] So it's that interesting natural nurture conversation, isn't it?

[00:30:12] And yeah, certainly the documentary and any research I have doesn't seem to go very much into the psychology of it,

[00:30:22] which I think might be an interesting angle.

[00:30:26] I would suspect in the future we might hear more about this, his psychological testing and such and what they found out over him, hopefully.

[00:30:33] I think so.

[00:30:34] And I think that there are definitely more investigations underway.

[00:30:37] Clearly, they wouldn't be done very openly.

[00:30:39] So we'll probably only know about them once they've been completed.

[00:30:43] I wonder whether that space of time that we've talked about is something that might emerge in the future,

[00:30:51] or certainly something that, as we've talked about, kind of really goes more into the why and the psychology of that behaviour.

[00:31:00] Because I think if in any way that could help prevent something like that in the future,

[00:31:05] then I think it would be a worthwhile exercise.

[00:31:07] I'm having a hard time thinking of any other case that would compare to this.

[00:31:13] Let's hope that's the case.

[00:31:14] Yes.

[00:31:14] Let's hope that's the case.

[00:31:15] Let's hope it stays that way.

[00:31:17] And obviously any case, whether it's mass murders or at volume or just one single case,

[00:31:26] is just as impactful for the friends and family and those that are affected.

[00:31:31] So I think the only difference in this case is one, is how wide the ripple is and the variety of the case and the time frame of it

[00:31:42] and how long it was undetected for and also just the absolute coldness and callousness of it.

[00:31:53] So, yeah, let's hope this is the worst one that you get to have on the show.

[00:32:00] Well, the good news is that on December 15th, 2021, he was handed two life sentences with no opportunity for parole.

[00:32:07] Of course, that was for the two murders.

[00:32:09] Then he was also given 15 years for committing the Mortuary Acts.

[00:32:15] So, yeah, I don't think we'll be seeing him in Super Snaps anytime soon or anywhere else.

[00:32:22] I would assume he's in isolation also.

[00:32:25] I would assume so because, yeah, I think we all know about prisons and I would imagine that he's probably in isolation.

[00:32:33] Yes.

[00:32:34] I think the thing that's, I was going to say scare and I guess that's the right word, scares me, makes me a bit anxious about this case.

[00:32:42] He was able to live in plain sight.

[00:32:44] He was a supervisor.

[00:32:45] He did overtime.

[00:32:47] He had a life and he did this for so long.

[00:32:51] And we started the show about murder links because my dad has so many just through his life.

[00:32:59] And everyone in his life was shocked.

[00:33:01] And I just think that these types of crimes, as sad as it is, both sides, both the murders and the disgusting acts that I won't even name, they happen around us with people that we never expect.

[00:33:16] And he was able to get away with it for so long.

[00:33:19] I just can't believe it in this day and age with the technology that we have, with, you know, the hospital passes, the CCTV, the fact that you kind of always hear gossip at work.

[00:33:30] You know, there's that weird person at work that always does something a bit strange.

[00:33:34] Nothing.

[00:33:34] He was found because of what he did to himself.

[00:33:38] And I'm so glad in a way that he did record that because if not, he could keep going.

[00:33:43] Who knows how long that would have, because it's actually worth noting that the Kenton Sussex Hospital, where he started the crimes, it then, that's the hospital that I remember as I was growing up, that then got knocked down.

[00:33:55] And it got moved to a different location in Pembrey, which is about 10 minutes away.

[00:34:02] So he then moved with the hospital to a completely new location.

[00:34:06] And you would imagine that given that the, that was a new hospital, the technology would have caught him.

[00:34:13] But actually he continued his crimes at the second hospital.

[00:34:17] So you can't even say, well, perhaps because it was a real hospital, the technology wasn't there.

[00:34:21] Maybe, maybe so.

[00:34:23] But you would have expected that in the second hospital, being that it was more modern, that there would have been some very easy ways of tracking his movements.

[00:34:33] Well, one good point is a person like this, it makes you wonder about your neighbors, about your fellow employees, about people around you that you think you know very well.

[00:34:47] That's a scary fact, isn't it?

[00:34:49] Yes, ma'am.

[00:34:50] It's a scary fact, for sure.

[00:34:52] And to tie into how we started again, it's, you can think that some places are more idyllic than others, but actually you never quite know what's lurking beneath.

[00:35:04] Well, having visited London so many times, the people here are wonderful.

[00:35:09] Well, you'll have to come to Tom and 12.

[00:35:11] Yes.

[00:35:11] I don't know about that.

[00:35:13] It has a bad reputation.

[00:35:15] It does now.

[00:35:17] And for anyone that's interested in this documentary, we will leave the link in our show notes.

[00:35:22] Hopefully you can watch it in the US.

[00:35:23] I'm not sure, but we'll try.

[00:35:25] It's definitely on Sky and on Now TV.

[00:35:28] Okay.

[00:35:28] It's called Murder in the...

[00:35:30] Monster in the Morgue.

[00:35:32] Yes, Monster in the Morgue.

[00:35:33] It's, I forget how many episodes.

[00:35:35] And as I said, it doesn't, it actually doesn't go into huge, gory details, but it really paints it all together with the right timeframes.

[00:35:45] It doesn't go into the psychology as much as I perhaps would have found interesting, but it certainly pieces together the story.

[00:35:53] I think I can respect that approach.

[00:35:55] I mean, usually on these episodes, we try to find as much detail as possible.

[00:35:59] With this case, I was like, I just want to speak to Claire.

[00:36:02] I don't want to know the details.

[00:36:03] I know the age range.

[00:36:04] I understand what happened.

[00:36:05] And the detail is so disturbing that like, I can just imagine what I know is already disturbing enough, you know?

[00:36:15] So hopefully it sounds like the documentary respected that enough because there's so many people involved.

[00:36:19] So many victims has such a ripple effect, as you say, for the community that I don't want to give him any limelight, really.

[00:36:27] Absolutely.

[00:36:28] Absolutely.

[00:36:28] I completely agree.

[00:36:29] And obviously it's important to be respectful for the victims.

[00:36:34] And actually, again, we were talking earlier about his own family.

[00:36:38] Obviously, they're victims of this too.

[00:36:41] They were completely unaware this was happening and have had to uproot themselves and start completely new lives,

[00:36:47] knowing that this was going on under their roof for so many years.

[00:36:51] Must be horrendous stuff to kind of live with.

[00:36:54] Imagine his children.

[00:36:56] One day they're thinking highly of this man.

[00:36:58] It's their father.

[00:36:59] And then the next day he's arrested.

[00:37:02] And now you don't even want to mention his name.

[00:37:04] Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:06] So, yeah, lots of impact from one individual.

[00:37:13] I would think that if I was his child or his wife, I wouldn't be able to trust anyone ever again because you think you know someone so well.

[00:37:24] And, yeah, it must mess with your own psyche and how you didn't see it.

[00:37:28] Yeah, the stranger beside you.

[00:37:30] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:32] Awesome.

[00:37:33] I suppose the only way for those people to look at it differently is to think it's such an anomaly that you've got to think the law of averages means that you're probably not going to encounter somebody to anywhere near that level.

[00:37:48] Because it's, yeah, it's going to take a dent on your trust issues for sure.

[00:37:53] Hopefully.

[00:37:54] Hopefully.

[00:37:54] Hopefully.

[00:37:56] Claire, thank you so much.

[00:37:58] We are so honoured to have you be our first live guest.

[00:38:01] Oh, are you kidding?

[00:38:02] I just, it's so nice to meet you, but finally meet you in person as well.

[00:38:06] And, yeah, as I said, it's a sensitive, horrible case.

[00:38:14] But, yeah, that's the link to the murderer.

[00:38:16] And then when you mentioned that was a show, I was like, I've got a link.

[00:38:20] Yeah.

[00:38:21] It's not, it's not a great, as I said, thing that you want to kind of be on that for.

[00:38:27] But, yeah, that's the story from the perspective of somebody living in the town.

[00:38:32] And I just want to say, someone that moved from Venezuela.

[00:38:35] So, Molly's here, who you have worked with before and you know.

[00:38:39] Her and I had no idea that you weren't, like, born in Britain and that you had immigrated.

[00:38:46] I told her before you arrived and she was like, what?

[00:38:48] And I was like, yes, I know.

[00:38:48] I have to know the details.

[00:38:49] Do you know what?

[00:38:50] It's quite funny because the number of people that sometimes, I'll mention either that or other things,

[00:38:54] and they've known me for years and they'll be like, how did I never know about that about you?

[00:38:58] So, I guess, not in the same way as who we were just going to, perhaps, we're all a dark horse in some ways and have our stories.

[00:39:06] But I did spend the first few years of my life.

[00:39:08] So, I was born in England and moved there at the age of four and spent six years there.

[00:39:12] So, I consider my childhood there because they're sort of the formative years when, you know, pre-four, you don't even remember very much.

[00:39:19] But, yeah, all of my primary was out there and I still have some family that live out there.

[00:39:25] But, yeah, that's a story for another day.

[00:39:28] For the gin that we're going to have in a bit.

[00:39:30] For the gin that we're having next.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:32] Well, again, thank you so much.

[00:39:34] Thank you for having me.

[00:39:35] Of course, we appreciate you sharing your murder link.

[00:39:38] We want to encourage anyone else to please share their murder link.

[00:39:41] So, if you have your own, feel free to send us an email at hello at murderlink.com.

[00:39:46] You can visit our Instagram.

[00:39:47] I think this story just goes to show how there can be different connections that link you to people that have had these experiences and we want to hear about them.

[00:39:57] So, get in touch.

[00:39:59] And, Claire, thank you again so much.

[00:40:00] Thank you.

[00:40:00] And I really genuinely love the show.

[00:40:03] Absolutely love it.

[00:40:05] And, yeah, good luck.

[00:40:06] And I hope you get lots more guests because I think it's a really interesting topic that opens up so many conversations beyond the topic itself.

[00:40:14] I think it's great.

[00:40:15] I would like to say thank you to all the listeners.

[00:40:18] Be sure to like, share, subscribe, and leave us a review.

[00:40:23] Thanks, Dad.

[00:40:24] So, my dad is like being our little champion with trying to get people on board.

[00:40:28] We're trying to build our fan base.

[00:40:29] So, yeah, if you do like the show, make sure you show us some support.

[00:40:33] For sure.

[00:40:34] This has been Murder Link.

[00:40:35] Thank you so much for listening.

[00:40:36] Bye, everyone.

[00:40:37] Bye.

[00:40:37] Bye.

[00:40:38] Bye.